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What would you do in these situations?

Forums Forums Gear – The Stuff We Carry First Aid Station What would you do in these situations?

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  • #11953
    admin
    Keymaster

    I am walking down the street and see people who need help. I need to learn how to better help them. Some of these of situations have happened to me before; some I haven’t encountered but would like to be prepared for them.

    1. I have on 3 occasions came across women who fell and sprained their ankles. I carried one home. The other times I helped them sit up. How can I better handle this? What EDC item can I bring with me to help.

    2. I came across 2 people who fainted. Luckily, it wasn’t serious. They got up within a minute and went on their way. How can I tell minor fainting like this from serious stuff like a heart attack? What can bring and do to better help?

    3. Seizure: I came across this twice. Didn’t know what to do. Only learned it was seizure later. How can I identify a seizure from something else. What can I do to help?

    5. Dog attack: I haven’t come across one, but would like to be prepared for it. How do you get the dog off the victim? What can you do for the victim afterward? I carry pepper spray and a small knife with me.

    6. House burning: I haven’t come across one, but would like to be prepared for it. How do you know when it’s safe to go inside to help someone?

    7. Drowning: Haven’t come across one, but would like to be prepared. I haven’t a clue what to do here.

    Thanks for any help and suggestions.

    #148308
    admin
    Keymaster

    Good on you for thinking about these things.

    For people collapsing, having seizures, etc treatment is always the same: prevent further injury, monitoring breathing&circulation and protecting the victim from exposure. If a victim doesn’t regain consiousness within 10 minutes, stops breathing or suffers more than 1 seizure after another: 911 should be called.

    Sprains are treated with RICE, which stands for Rest,Ice,Compression, Elevation. So let her sit down, apply an instand cold pack or wet bandanna on the ankle for 10 minutes. Keep the victims shoes on to prevent swelling or apply an ACE bandage for additional compression. Elevate the limb slightly and give ibuprofen if possible.

    Can’t help you with the dog attack, but for severe bleeding you can put on a pair of nitril gloves, apply direct pressure on the wound( with bandanna or gloved hand) and call 911.

    Never go into any burning buildings, let the pros handle this. If there are any victims outside monitor their breathing, coold burns with water and prevent hypothermia with blankets.

    Drowning: call911 and only go in if you are comfident in your own swimming abillitys. Approach from the rear of the victim so they can’t grab you and drag you under, calm victim down and drag to shore. Monitor breathing and prevent hypothermia.

    As you can see, it isn’t hard to respond, and ypu certainly don’t need a whole trauma kit when you walk across the street. What I carry: gloves, bandanna, bandaids, cpr barrier and a space blanket in my coat.

    Hth

    #148309
    admin
    Keymaster

    1. Sprained ankle – the best way to heal it is to rest it, not much use in the short term, but getting the patient to sit down, raise the affected limb and cool it down (ice packs, wet towel, etc…)

    2. Fainting – The basic ABC of first aid – check their airways (are they choking or obstructed in some way?), breathing (are they breathing normally), circulation (do they have a normal pulse) – if they are missing any of these then the problem is serious and you would be looking to cpr to keep them alive until the ambulance gets there, if they are otherwise fine, then put them in the recovery position and wait for help to arrive.

    3. There is virtually nothing that can be done to someone in a seizure, so your mission is to let them ride it out in comfort – remove obstructions they could hurt themselves on, get a pillow or similar to protect the head and keep them as safe as possible until help arrives.

    4. Go about your daily life?

    5. Getting rid of the dog I am not too sure on, so hopefully someone else will comment. Bites I would treat like any other flesh wound – raise it and put pressure on the wound with a bandage then wait for help.

    6. You don’t without a lot of training – unless you can tell where exactly the fire is and how structurally sound the building is I would stay out and avoid adding yourself to the casualty list – for those that have escaped, cool down burns and keep them otherwise warm and comfortable until help can arrive.

    7. Another very risky one – you need to be very comfortable in the water to ensure you are not again adding yourself to the casualty list and making the proper responders job harder. If possible help in any way you can from the shore by supplying any nearby rescue devices like rings, throwing them a rope to catch hold of or presenting a stick or other item they can grab to stabilise themselves (always remembering to make sure you yourself are safe). Getting people out from the water can be hugely risky if you are not trained, as you will have things like cold, currents and other water based problems, alongside the fact that someone drowning is going to be frantic and not always recognise you as a helper as opposed to something dragging them down and stopping them moving so they will lash out. I think the basics are to get behind someone, hook them under the armpits and drag them to safety, but I would want a more reliable word before doing anything…

    If you have noticed, one constant I have been mentioning – get proper help. The first job in any incident is to get the relevant help, and then keep the subject alive and stable until they can get there. The other added bonus of calling for help is that the person on the other end of the phone will be trained in exactly this sort of thing, and will give you the best advice – if you don’t know how to give cpr, treat a certain wound or if it is safe for you to help, they will tell you.

    Really the best bet is to do a course in basic first aid – I have done ‘first response’ courses in the past which give you the basic information for stuff like this – how to act in a situation and what to do until the trained guys get there. The courses I have done only took a couple of evenings, and are definitely worth it. Check with local organisations like St Johns Ambulance and they should be able to direct you to the appropriate place.

    One last thing to remember, and one of the most important in any incident you may come across – you are the most important person there, and your own safety comes before anything else – in any situation make sure you evaluate all the risks, know your limits and only get involved if you know what you are doing. Diving in with good intentions is an easy way to end up as a casualty yourself and something else needing help.

    I should also say that this comes from what I have learnt through various first aid courses and training sessions, and is by no means authoritative – hopefully someone else can chime in and back me up or disprove me as relevant.

    #148310
    admin
    Keymaster

    Jim has some good advise, but I would like to add in my two cents.

    For sprained ankles Jim was correct about the RICE principle. However, when applying a cold pack you want to avoid placing the cold pack, bag of frozen peas, or bag of ice directly on the injury…you want to wrap the aforementioned items in a bandana, t-shirt, or thin towel and then apply to the ankle. The reason for this is to prevent a cold injury to the area. Also, you would remove the shoe ASAP!!! If the shoe is kept on, it may cause further injury and pain to the patient. The best way for shoe removal is to remove the laces, or in my case I cut them, and have someone stabilize the leg, and I gently slide the shoe off, or in more severe cases, I will use trauma shears to make a cut down the side of the shoe to remove it. Ibuprofen may be an option for the the patient, however you need to ask what other medications they are on, what type of medical history they have, and most importantly if they are allergic to Motrin…(same thing as Ibuprofen). Basically I am saying that if THEY want to take the medication themselves and you just happen to have some on you, then that is on the patient. But you giving the patient Motrin saying “here you should take this” is not a good idea. For example if the patient has ulcers giving them Motrin is not a good idea because it will do more harm than good. Also, you have to consider dosing. One 200mg tablet of Motrin will not do much for the patient with a severely sprained ankle, but prescription strength Motrin, 800mg will be a better option…MY advise is to place ice or a cold pack on the injury, and let the patient see their personal physician, or go to the ER where they can be given the correct medicine at the correct dosage. Moving on…

    For people that faint (also known as a syncopal episode or syncope) and seizures Jim was correct about monitoring the airway, circulation and moving objects out of the way so that the person does not hurt themselves. I do have a few different recommendations however. Some people faint due to minor circumstances. An example of this would be someone in the military who locks their knees while standing at the position of attention thus restricting the vital blood flow that the brain needs. When the person collapses from this circumstance, the blood flow is no longer restricted, and the person regains consciousness and is usually ok. However a person may lose consciousness for a multitude of reasons. If a person does not regain consciousness RIGHT AWAY, call 911. DO NOT WAIT 10 MINUTES!!! Monitor vital signs, and if the person is uninjured, place the person in what is called the left lateral recumbent position. All you do is place the patient on his or her left side and place a pillow or jacket, or whatever you have available under their head. Same treatment for a seizure patient. CALL 911!!! Chances are that you will not know a random strangers medical history and it is better to be safe than sorry. Do NOT let the patient in either of these scenarios have anything to eat or drink, and do not place anything in their mouth.

    For a dog attack, YOUR SAFETY IS PARAMOUNT!!! Try to distract the animal from a distance and immediately call 911. Do not get close to the animal. If YOU get bit, that creates more problems and more patients. You will be doing more harm than good. Bleeding is treated by applying direct pressure to the wound preferably with sterile gauze. You then elevate the injury above the person’s heart. If the person is still bleeding, DO NOT REMOVE the first dressing that you placed on the wound…ADD another dressing on top of the current dressing. If the person is still bleeding, place pressure on a pressure point if you are trained to do so, and then as a last resort, place a tourniquet on the patient if you are trained to do so. This is an absolute last resort option only to be exercised if you are TRAINED to do so. If the bleeding is severe and the patient goes into shock, lay the person on the ground, elevate their feet at least 12 inches, and cover them with a blanket.

    Jim was spot on in regards to a burning building. DO NOT ENTER AND PLAY HERO!!!!! DO NOT ENTER! Let the firefighters do their job. You do not have the training nor the correct equipment to go into a burning building. Once again, we do not want ANOTHER patient to treat!

    For drowning..I have some disagreements with Jim’s suggestions. I DO agree with immediately calling 911. However only go in as a LAST resort. We use the saying reach, throw, row, and then go. Reach for the victim with a pole, oar, or whatever you have available. Throw a lifeline, a floatation device or anything that will reach the patient so that you can pull them back safely to shore. Row out to the patient in a canoe, or get to them via some type of maritime craft. Only swim to the patient if you are trained. Once again swimming to the patient with no training will most likely create yet another victim. If you lose sight of the victim, look for a specific landmark behind the victim, and mark the spot that you are standing. This will help rescue crews once they arrive on scene.

    I really hope that these very short pieces of advise help you. I strongly recommend that you attend a training course through the Red Cross or other certified agency for first aid, and for CPR. If you have any other questions, please let me know.

    #148311
    admin
    Keymaster

    Jim has some good advise, but I would like to add in my two cents.

    For sprained ankles Jim was correct about the RICE principle. However, when applying a cold pack you want to avoid placing the cold pack, bag of frozen peas, or bag of ice directly on the injury…you want to wrap the aforementioned items in a bandana, t-shirt, or thin towel and then apply to the ankle. The reason for this is to prevent a cold injury to the area. Also, you would remove the shoe ASAP!!! If the shoe is kept on, it may cause further injury and pain to the patient. The best way for shoe removal is to remove the laces, or in my case I cut them, and have someone stabilize the leg, and I gently slide the shoe off, or in more severe cases, I will use trauma shears to make a cut down the side of the shoe to remove it. Ibuprofen may be an option for the the patient, however you need to ask what other medications they are on, what type of medical history they have, and most importantly if they are allergic to Motrin…(same thing as Ibuprofen). Basically I am saying that if THEY want to take the medication themselves and you just happen to have some on you, then that is on the patient. But you giving the patient Motrin saying “here you should take this” is not a good idea. For example if the patient has ulcers giving them Motrin is not a good idea because it will do more harm than good. Also, you have to consider dosing. One 200mg tablet of Motrin will not do much for the patient with a severely sprained ankle, but prescription strength Motrin, 800mg will be a better option…MY advise is to place ice or a cold pack on the injury, and let the patient see their personal physician, or go to the ER where they can be given the correct medicine at the correct dosage. Moving on…

    For people that faint (also known as a syncopal episode or syncope) and seizures Jim was correct about monitoring the airway, circulation and moving objects out of the way so that the person does not hurt themselves. I do have a few different recommendations however. Some people faint due to minor circumstances. An example of this would be someone in the military who locks their knees while standing at the position of attention thus restricting the vital blood flow that the brain needs. When the person collapses from this circumstance, the blood flow is no longer restricted, and the person regains consciousness and is usually ok. However a person may lose consciousness for a multitude of reasons. If a person does not regain consciousness RIGHT AWAY, call 911. DO NOT WAIT 10 MINUTES!!! Monitor vital signs, and if the person is uninjured, place the person in what is called the left lateral recumbent position. All you do is place the patient on his or her left side and place a pillow or jacket, or whatever you have available under their head. Same treatment for a seizure patient. CALL 911!!! Chances are that you will not know a random strangers medical history and it is better to be safe than sorry. Do NOT let the patient in either of these scenarios have anything to eat or drink, and do not place anything in their mouth.

    For a dog attack, YOUR SAFETY IS PARAMOUNT!!! Try to distract the animal from a distance and immediately call 911. Do not get close to the animal. If YOU get bit, that creates more problems and more patients. You will be doing more harm than good. Bleeding is treated by applying direct pressure to the wound preferably with sterile gauze. You then elevate the injury above the person’s heart. If the person is still bleeding, DO NOT REMOVE the first dressing that you placed on the wound…ADD another dressing on top of the current dressing. If the person is still bleeding, place pressure on a pressure point if you are trained to do so, and then as a last resort, place a tourniquet on the patient if you are trained to do so. This is an absolute last resort option only to be exercised if you are TRAINED to do so. If the bleeding is severe and the patient goes into shock, lay the person on the ground, elevate their feet at least 12 inches, and cover them with a blanket.

    Jim was spot on in regards to a burning building. DO NOT ENTER AND PLAY HERO!!!!! DO NOT ENTER! Let the firefighters do their job. You do not have the training nor the correct equipment to go into a burning building. Once again, we do not want ANOTHER patient to treat!

    For drowning..I have some disagreements with Jim’s suggestions. I DO agree with immediately calling 911. However only go in as a LAST resort. We use the saying reach, throw, row, and then go. Reach for the victim with a pole, oar, or whatever you have available. Throw a lifeline, a floatation device or anything that will reach the patient so that you can pull them back safely to shore. Row out to the patient in a canoe, or get to them via some type of maritime craft. Only swim to the patient if you are trained. Once again swimming to the patient with no training will most likely create yet another victim. If you lose sight of the victim, look for a specific landmark behind the victim, and mark the spot that you are standing. This will help rescue crews once they arrive on scene.

    I really hope that these very short pieces of advise help you. I strongly recommend that you attend a training course through the Red Cross or other certified agency for first aid, and for CPR. If you have any other questions, please let me know.

    #148312
    admin
    Keymaster

    I can re-iterate all of firemedics advice. All I can add is compressed gas fire extinguishers are kryptonite for dogs.

    #148313
    admin
    Keymaster

    First thing, don’t get near me you are serious bad luck 😉

    and what everyone else said.

    #148314
    admin
    Keymaster

    There’s some good info here, but honestly I would suggest getting some medical training. I don’t know where you’re located, but if you are in the US, look in to some American Red Cross classes. It’s one thing to note some info from a forum, its another to be properly trained and know how to apply your knowledge.

    FWIW, I am currently trained in First Aid, CPR Pro, Emergency Response and several other items. I held an EMT cert for some time as well. Like anything else, practice makes perfect.

    #148315
    admin
    Keymaster

    I trained as a lifeguard when I was younger so to add my 2cents to the drowning discussion. If you do swim out to someone, and you do have a floatation device to give to them stop about 10feet short of them and throw the floatation device over, once they have a firm grasp on that only then go close enough to touch them.

    A drowning victim will often grab onto anything to try and keep there head above water. So a tip I was given by a senior guard who swears by this is. If you do swim over and they are two panicked to let you help them without risking your self try saying this “calm down of I’ll leave you to drown”. Sounds harsh but I’m promised that will calm down even the most scared person pretty promptly.

    your mileage may vary.

    #148316
    admin
    Keymaster

    Now I just want to know what #4 was…

    #148317
    admin
    Keymaster

    pretty much agree with what everyone else has said. With the sprained ankle there are a few things I would look out for. The list below is to be used with common sense and not everything mentioned is applicable for every condition. If it is a mild sprain it will be pretty obvious what it is. If it is more serious (or you aren’t sure) it may be worth leaving the patient on the ground where they can’t fall over or cause further injury to themselves.

    1) Is there any obvious deformity?
    2)Can the limb bear weight immediately?
    3) What is capillary refill like and does the extremity have Colour, Movement, Warmth and Sensitivity?
    4) What was the mechanism of injury?
    5) How old is the patient?
    6) If they are sitting/lying down can they lift their foot off the floor – (If no then suspect broken neck of femur – especially if elderly)
    7) Is there pulse rapid and weak? (Shock upon injury can set in fast especially in elderly patients).

    On the burning building scenario – Just last week I was chatting with a friend who is a fireman and he had just attended a fatal house fire. The homeowner returned into the building and made it less than 6 feet through the front door before collapsing. It isn’t the heat it’s the smoke and particulate that gets into your lungs and prevents gas exchange.

    #148318
    admin
    Keymaster

    Thank you everyone for providing some amazingly useful information. I have two more questions:

    1. How do you recognize a diabetic person in need of help, and what can you do to help?

    2. How do you move an unconscious but still breathing person, pick up and carry, drag by arms, drag legs?

    Thanks again.

    #148319
    admin
    Keymaster

    1. Training – Wilderness 1st Aid, IMHO is the most useful, no real material solution for your pockets.
    2. Training – Wilderness 1st Aid, IMHO is the most useful, no real material solution for your pockets.
    3. Training – Wilderness 1st Aid, IMHO is the most useful, no real material solution for your pockets – maybe a set of gloves
    4. ?
    5. #911, Pepper Spray may not work – big stick might be a better idea then a little knife, then back to the Medical Training
    6. You can go in a couple of days after the fire marshals have finished their investigation, seriously – next time the FD practice burns a house go watch how fast things happen.
    7. Training – some of the water safety courses are physically challenging so know what your getting into. You really need to get a flotation device to the victim – without (as noted) becoming one as well, pulling someone around and back who weighs anywhere near as much as you is very difficult. I had to help teach new recruits who couldn’t swim the basics – and dealing with the panic strength is something you may not be prepared for – I had a to have a guy punched into near unconsciousness once before he let go (in 4 ft of water).

    You added 2 more:

    1. If they are not to far gone they may be able to tell you what the problem is and how to fix it, the braclets and such aren’t going to help you if they are already out, so barring them telling you what to do, your only real option is calling for help and securing the scene
    2. Unless you know why they are unconscious AND really have to move them, I wouldn’t. If you have to, immobilizing the neck/head would be the first step – but if you have time to do that, why move them. I guess, my preference would be to get them on some sort of skid or sled – a heavy jacket, piece of plywood, sheet of cardboard versus a lift and carry.

    #148320
    admin
    Keymaster

    Regarding dogs. I have tangled with dogs on 3 separate occasions. First time was my next door neighbors standard boxer. It was an aggressive dog in general and was unpredictable. It was in the 60lb range. It attacked my wife in our driveway one day, after it broke the hardware on the cheap lead it was on at the time. I had just walked out the door to help her carry stuff in. The dog had bit my wife hard on the hand (breaking a finger), had knocked her down and had her by the pants leg/ankle. I rushed it, tackled it and basically used my body weight to keep it pinned as its owner came screaming at me to get off her dog. The second incident involved the same dog charging a young girl, maybe ten, who was carrying her cat down the sidewalk. The dog went after the cat, who clawed the crap out of the girl while basically climbing her head. When I arrived the cat was treed about 5′ up a shrub with the little girl crying and bleeding and watching this dog about to eat her cat. A point blank blast of pepper spray literally flipped the dog backwards and sent it running. This would have been the end of things for the dog if it owner hadn’t fled town with it.

    The third event was a large 90-100lbs shepherd-hound mix that full on charged me. It was late fall and I was wearing a canvas work shirt under a fleece jacket. The dog hit me from the left side. I’d only heard it coming a moment before it hit. I had started to step away and was lucky I didn’t fall. The first bite was below the left elbow, when I jerked my arm, it’s mouth sort of just slid down several inches, pulling the fleece with it. It ended up with a firm grip on my left hand with mostly a mouth full of fleece, but with one canine stuck thru the meaty part of my hand below the pinky. At this point the dog was in front of me in a tug of war with my arm, when it was in close to me I grabbed the scruff of its neck with my right hand, pulled the dog towards me and fell on it with my full weight (350lbs) On impact. the dog let go of my hand, yelped, struggled out from under me and took off.

    During the police report after the 3rd incident, and since then, I have talked to a couple of K9 officers and a few other that have been attacked. They all agreed with my actions. I’ve decided, with their input, that there are a few key things to dealing with an attacking dog. First off is to protect your throat. Next, do your best stay on your feet. When the boxer attacked my wife, it was her stepping backyards over tree roots that took her down, had she been on her feet, I probably would have kicked the dog, or looked for something to hit it with, the only reason I jumped on the dog was because she was down and so vulnerable. My second incident with that same dog had me more mad at the beast than anything, and I probably would have taken my chances kicking its *** no matter what. When 3rd incident happened, I was lucky that the angle it hit me and my stance kept me on my feet. Staying on your feet, or when dealing with a dog attacking someone else, your biggest advantage is your body weight. Except with the really big monster breeds(which are rare), a grown man is going to almost always have a huge weight advantage over any dog. Apply your body weight to the dog as violently as possible. Pancake your self on top of it as hard as possible, drop your weight onto it with your knees. Any attempt to kick it, hit it, spray it,…etc stand a good chance of not working at all, or turning it aggression towards you. Instead go at it with the full intent of crushing it, you probably have at least a 2 to 1 body weight advantage, and surprise on your side

    Having messed with dogs more time than I care to, I definitely don’t look forward to it ever again. However, here in Memphis tonight, the local news is again running a story of an 8 year old mauled by a pit bull. This happens several times a year here. I will not stand by watching and dialing 911 if i see this happening. These days my response will probably be a muzzle contact shot from a .45. If I don’t feel like I can safely shoot it without endangering others, I will hit the beast like a linebacker with the intent of crushing the dog to death.

    Sorry if I’ve been on a rant, irresponsible dog owners **** me off almost as much as irresponsible gun owners, especially the ones that are screaming at me to get off their “baby” that just attacked my wife.

    My 2 cents, ymmv.

    #148321
    admin
    Keymaster

    1) If they or anyone with them can’t tell you, try their phone for ICE, Dr, Mum Dad then last dialled with a first name etc. There are signs occasionally breath smell, carrying meds, medi alerts as well as pulse, pallor breathing etc. But the only way to know for sure is a test. Oral glucose is a no no if they are unconscious so then it’s basic first aid ABC until help arrives (If you have glucose in an IV with you then I doubt you need my advice). If they are conscious give a little sweet food or drink and see if they improve, if they do improve give them some more.
    Remember if they don’t improve with glucose then diabetics can get struck down and injured by all the other nasty things out there as well.

    2)I’d only move someone if the area is life threatening, you need to move them to save their life (Eg to perform effective CPR) or they need to get to hospital or die and an ambulance is too far away to get there in time but remember STILL CALL FOR HELP. If you are going to move someone, if you are on your own it depends on your strength, their weight and the distance, be realistic if you can’t get them out safety then you are just going to risk making matters worse, if you injure yourself then you can’t help them, you can’t assist the emergency services and you may cause them to divide their efforts.
    The old favourite firemans lift will work but takes a fair bit of muscle and a lot of technique on someone who is unconscious, but it’s the only way to take someone a long(ish) distance. It’s also not good for any kind of musculoskeletal injuries especially C spine or internal injuries and you can’t really monitor them. If it’s only a short distance, and you’re able, then the walking backwards and lifting under their armpits with you hands clasped over theirs on their chest is the recommended method but I suggest you try this first as it’s not easy and 20 yards is a long long way like this, especially if you have to deal with steps slopes or rough ground and you will almost certainly hurt your back. If they have a backpack or even better a grab handle on their clothing then you can have a go at pulling them with that. You can also clip something to that, if you have it, to drag them so you can stay standing upright. If there are 2 or more of you then a stretcher is the way to go and any kind of makeshift stretcher or sled will help. Even in a fairly basic first aid kit you can carry something like

    Any more than 2 people and one can immobilise the head; for all of this if you have an extraction collar that will fit and time and ability to apply it then of course use it. I’ve heard you can use a Sam splint like this as well but I’ve never seen it done.
    If time is of the essence, then again, dragging them backwards head first with you taking an armpit each is the best way but even with 2 of you that’s a big ask over any distance and, to get the best purchase, you are looking away from the threat but at least in the direction you are going.

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