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Cmath said: ↑
Either 9mm or .38spl +p. I CC either a Glock 19 or a 43. Occasionally a Glock 17. And pocket carry a S&W 442 from time to time.How is the trigger pull on your 442? I carried my mother’s 642 for a couple of weeks (was gonna send it off to get the trigger modified) due to her inability to reliably pull the trigger (bad case of arthritis). It actually measured 9.5lbs.
O.T.
Glock 43 – 9mm
Glock 23 (today)- 40 S&WThe FBI Miami Shootout failure was about lack of bullet penetration. The 9mm load those poor agents were issued was insufficient to penetrate deep enough to stop the BGs. The load only propelled the 115-grain 9mm bullet to just under 1075 fps from the S&W pistols they carried. The jackets that the BGs wore partially clogged the hollow point of the bullet, reducing the penetration. That is what led to the adoption of the 10mm cartridge and the S&W Model 1076 after the Wound Ballistic Workshop led by Martin Fackler, MD. I own one of those pistols. It is heavy and difficult to conceal and carry for protracted periods. The 10mm load was reduced to velocities that led to the development of the .40S&W.
The fight-stopper was the .357 Magnum; one of the cartridges that I routinely select. I carry it in a 5-inch revolver. Although I am a long-term user of the .45 ACP cartridge, I am transitioning to the 38 Super in the 1911 platform. My chosen round is the Corbon DPx 38 Super +P 125-grain load. Mean velocity from the 5-inch barrel of my Baer 1911 is 1377fps. This performance closely matches the 1407 fps mean from my S&W Model 627-5 PC revolver with the same bullet weight.
Anyone else here routinely carry a 5-inch barreled handgun?!
You know people do die with .22 rounds so it is possible ..but carry what you can, carry what you can shoot well with..most shootings are within close range, just square up that center mass and unload what you got. I carry a G27, I can use my spare G22 15 rd mags in the 27 so I have plenty of ammo..I am looking at the new Glocks in .380 and 9mm, had the first Ruger LCP model, perfect pocket carry with the Blackhawk pocket holster, almost forget you had it. Now I hate myself for selling it..
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0dBm said: ↑
The FBI Miami Shootout failure was about lack of bullet penetration. The 9mm load those poor agents were issued was insufficient to penetrate deep enough to stop the BGs. The load only propelled the 115-grain 9mm bullet to just under 1075 fps from the S&W pistols they carried. The jackets that the BGs wore partially clogged the hollow point of the bullet, reducing the penetration. That is what led to the adoption of the 10mm cartridge and the S&W Model 1076 after the Wound Ballistic Workshop led by Martin Fackler, MD. I own one of those pistols. It is heavy and difficult to conceal and carry for protracted periods. The 10mm load was reduced to velocities that led to the development of the .40S&W.The fight-stopper was the .357 Magnum; one of the cartridges that I routinely select. I carry it in a 5-inch revolver. Although I am a long-term user of the .45 ACP cartridge, I am transitioning to the 38 Super in the 1911 platform. My chosen round is the Corbon DPx 38 Super +P 125-grain load. Mean velocity from the 5-inch barrel of my Baer 1911 is 1377fps. This performance closely matches the 1407 fps mean from my S&W Model 627-5 PC revolver with the same bullet weight.
Anyone else here routinely carry a 5-inch barreled handgun?!
Click to expand…
The Winchester Ranger T-series is the new generation of the Black Talon. The 124gr 9mm round is moving at close to 1200fps. Which is .357 mag territory. It is the same diameter. I continually see people talk about how weak the 9mm is and how great the .357 is. Yet with the right round, there is little difference ballistically. The black Talon has superior expansion and creates a pretty impressive wound channel. Also I have a lot more rounds. Kel-tec P11 holds 14 with one in the pipe and is smaller than a typical .357.First of all, I’m not going to allow myself to be baited into a contentious caliber war. But I am going to express my viewpoint on the subject.
Over the years I’ve performed extensive terminal ballistic tests with a variety of mediums, and numerous revolver, pistol and rifle calibers. I also subscribe to the studies of Evan Marshal and Ed Sanow. This is why I prefer to carry medium caliber 9×19 bonded +P+ in full size pistols, or bonded .357 SIG, and bonded .357 Magnum ammunition in revolvers… All copper bullets will get the job done as well, as long as they’re moving fast enough to fully expand. But shot placement is still an essential factor in putting the bad guys down for the count.
.40S&W carried.
I prefer it over the 9mm but as someone above said the advances in 9mm rounds, if you buy good ammo, negate much of the things that people complain about the round. I just prefer the .40. I’ve a Sig Legion P226 in .40 and that’s my girl now. Previously it was a XDM .40.
I’ve got a Sig P320 in 9mm. I’m not opposed to 9mm, I just prefer the 40. As Gary above states shot placement is a large part of it. You put rounds in the right place, 9mm 40.. 45, 357, the target goes down.If someone takes 12 rounds from my .40 and is still standing. It’s likely time to bloody run. That said if I put 2.. 3… 4 shots into their main body with the .40 and they’re still standing. I’m elevating a foot or so. If some guy is so tough to take a round, (Or more) of my pistol in the head/face, and doesn’t drop. then yeah. Running might be a :censored: good idea.
Pogue_Mahone said: ↑
The Winchester Ranger T-series is the new generation of the Black Talon. The 124gr 9mm round is moving at close to 1200fps. Which is .357 mag territory. It is the same diameter. I continually see people talk about how weak the 9mm is and how great the .357 is. Yet with the right round, there is little difference ballistically. The black Talon has superior expansion and creates a pretty impressive wound channel. Also I have a lot more rounds. Kel-tec P11 holds 14 with one in the pipe and is smaller than a typical .357.
The 9mm the agents used at the time in Miami WAS weak because the velocity was insufficient. I personally prefer two 9mm loadings: Federal’s exquisite 115-grain 9BP at 1100 FPS & Federal’s 9BPLE (LE-only) at 1290 fps. Out of my 5.25-inch barreled custom Novak-built Browning P-35, I can get sub-2 inch groups at 50 feet while moving. That’s good enough for head shots. With my custom S&W Model 659, 1325 fps with the latter is typical and that’s .357 performance.With my 8-round 627-5 .357 or 11-rounds Baer 1911 38 Super, I can get the same accuracy as with the P-35. With that accuracy, power, AND distance, I don’t need 14 rounds. In fact, at longer distances, I would rather just avoid shooting altogether.
Gary Lee Duncan said: ↑
First of all, I’m not going to allow myself to be baited into a contentious caliber war. But I am going to express my viewpoint on the subject.Over the years I’ve performed extensive terminal ballistic tests with a variety of mediums, and numerous revolver, pistol and rifle calibers. I also subscribe to the studies of Evan Marshal and Ed Sanow. This is why I prefer to carry medium caliber 9×19 bonded +P+ in full size pistols, or bonded .357 SIG, and bonded .357 Magnum ammunition in revolvers… All copper bullets will get the job done as well, as long as they’re moving fast enough to fully expand. But shot placement is still an essential factor in putting the bad guys down for the count.
Testing in various mediums is essential and that is obviously all that we have to collect data and form conclusions on the would-be performance of any projectile; however, one will never know the actual result until actually discharging a projectile onto a live human.The following photos depict the results of simple terminal ballistic tests using Magtech FD9A, and Magtech FDJ40A monolithic HP ammo on gallon water jugs at a range of ten feet:
The first photo, left to right, indicates why velocity is vital for reliable expansion of SCHP ammo. The first two poorly expanded 9×19 bullets were discharged from a Kel-Tec PF-9, which has a 3″ barrel. This caused over penetration due to poor expansion. The third fully expanded bullet was discharged from a Glock 19 equipped with a 5″ LWD barrel.
The second photo depicts, left to right, three expanded SCHP .40 S&W bullets. The first was discharged from a Ruger SR40 4″ barrel. The second from a Glock 23 equipped with a 5″ LWD barrel. And the third from a Glock 35 equipped with a 9″ LWD extended barrel. At least when fired at relatively close ranges, I wouldn’t recommend the use of a barrel longer than 5″-6″ for personal protection when using this monolithic HP ammo due to over penetration caused by too much expansion… I can only surmise it would perform smashingly well on hogs within reasonable hunting ranges using a 9″ barrel though. 🙂
The Miami shootout was nore about training than bullets. There’s a reason the FBI has moved back to 9mm. Pointing the finger at the 9mm was a mistake. I personally know a friend that was shot with an ND through his thigh with a 230 grain hollow point out of a Government sized 1911. He didn’t even feel it. He was lucky that his femoral artery was missed. He now owns a home at the full expense of the idiot that shot him and some cool scars to show off. Just goes to show that shot placement is key. If you shut down the CNS, you stop the fight.
If you’ve seen actual projectiles, such as those depicted in those photos, that were recovered from human tissue, you will see that they don’t expand like that symmetrical, mushroom shape when fired into test media that the shooting community has largely imbued the last 30-35 years as the defacto material to represent homo sapien flesh. Most of those recovered bullets resemble the leftmost projectile in the upper photo in your post. Many are deformed due to hitting cartilage and bone.
Your statement “…due to over penetration caused by too much expansion” contains competing concepts. Bullet expansion and penetration, while not diametrically opposed, are at least at seemingly opposite ends of a continuum that has characteristics of a conundrum.
Handgun ammunition engineering the last 30 years has focused on designing projectiles used on handguns to expand more while limiting over-penetration. Government studies highly suggest that the larger the terminal diameter of the bullet, the larger the so-called temporary stretch cavity; a concept that equate to more shock imparted and thus resulting in stopping power. Note that stopping power is NOT the knockdown power so often and mistakenly depicted in popular cinema. Stopping power, as it relates to handgun ammunition, is the concept that a human will stop whatever activity is in progress when hit by a projectile fired from a handgun.
Too much expansion often, but not always, LIMITS penetration; not facilitates it. Such is with frangible ammunition that do not penetrate enough to cause damage to the vital organs. To much penetration severely limits the temporary stretch cavity concept that I previously discussed.
The dilemma of the Round Nose Lead (RNL) & Full Metal Jacket (FMJ, né “ball”) bullet types of decades past were notorious for over-penetrating; causing a long permanent wound cavity with a quite-small temporary stretch cavity that resulted in failures to stop. Therein lies the conundrum that modern handgun ammunition projectiles are close (but not yet) to resolving.
The optimized scenario is 75-100% (or more) expansion of the original bullet diameter after the terminal penetration of at least 12 inches. This combination proposes that a resulting maximum temporary wound cavity to impart the requisite stopping power while limiting the probability of the projectile exiting the human body to minimize collateral damage to bystanders that happen to be in the Field of Fire (FOF).
I have long subscribed to the bigger-bullet slower-velocity school of thought; carrying 230-grain .45s for several decades and witnessing the results (that’s what counts more that anything!). I’ve recently made a switch to .38 Super +P in my carry 1911 after seeing many more results of the .357’s effectiveness. In concert with the .357 and the extensively-developed modern 9mm +P chamberings, the .38 Super +P now form a triumvirate in my daily battery of handguns that I WEAR.
I state “WEAR” because I use full-size, 5-inch-barreled handguns as my primary sidearm, not those “abbreviated” models that have found favor with those that prefer to carry them.
IMightBeWrong said: ↑
The Miami shootout was n[m]ore about training than bullets. There’s a reason the FBI has moved back to 9mm. Pointing the finger at the 9mm was a mistake. I personally know a friend that was shot with an ND through his thigh with a 230 grain hollow point out of a Government sized 1911. He didn’t even feel it. He was lucky that his femoral artery was missed. He now owns a home at the full expense of the idiot that shot him and some cool scars to show off. Just goes to show that shot placement is key. If you shut down the CNS, you stop the fight.
That “training” cost lives!The reason that the FBI returned to the 9mm is because the modern chambering has been the subject of much engineering to optimize its performance that it SORELY lacked 30 years ago. Without that development, that agency properly pointed that finger. The 9mm cartridge that those poor agents were issued was no less than anemic in comparison. The study known as the Wound Ballistic Workshop confirmed that.
That same wound suffered by your friend would have also resulted similarly with the 9mm round that the FBI used back then; AND, likely with a modern cartridge in BOTH 9mm and .45 because of the area that was hit: it does not contain vital organs or vessels.
BTW, the policy of the FBI is to aim for center mass (not appendages) that contains vital organs to effect a “stop.” The 9mm that was issued to them 30 years ago failed miserably to stop the BGs.
I carry in my G21 SF, (with a 20 round magazine and two spares on my off side, for a total of 60 rounds), 230 Grain Federal Hydra Shoks alternated with Winchester U.S.A. FMJs, (just in case I need some penetration). I’ve carried this combo for the last 7 years and have gotten so used to the weight, that I don’t even notice it.
I have attended a lecture on the Miami shoot out by a current LEO. There was a whole bunch of issues with that fight.
In a nut shell
The LEO’s were not there to engage, just follow, so they were woefully unprepared with regard to the type of weapons they had
The 9mm did not do its job
(and one of the LEO’s had not even loaded his magazine to full capacity.)
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